agreed, we never have had the discussion about these little people's souls. I believe every one was elect, I think God's character in the whole of bible supports this. thoughts?
Yeah, I would lean that way as well. I think that the principle in romans 1 about mankind being without excuse in relation to the revelation of God through "the creation of the world [where] God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood from what's been made." And without having had this understanding, infants cannot make this connection, and don't hold the responsibility of having had rejected it. I actually have a bizarre optimism about the infanticide humanity has embraced: Perhaps it is God's grace to millions of souls to bypass this crooked and perverse world and be born in Heaven. Its not a bad deal.
I don't, necessarily. Bypassing this world has it's advantages, but also has it's major disadvantages. God has designed life to be experienced so that we would have a better understanding of who He is through His attributes. When a baby gets killed, they don't get the experience of grace in all it's inter-workings. They definitely understand is intellectually, but lack the experience. I think that is why "angels long to look into" the gospel here on earth. It's not something that they will ever get to experience. Also, they don't have the opportunity to earn reward in heaven. I think the only "bright-side" to it is that they don't have to experience the stupidity and heartache of sinning against the God of the universe. All that to say, the killing of babies is a wicked evil that brings reproach on the name of God...which is obviously what you guys believe.
I concur with that as well. I think the comparison to angels best illustrates your point of the unique human experience of forgiveness and grace, which does indeed exalt certain attributes of God in view from this angle. I guess to clarify my 'optimism' about infanticide is that: even though these souls will not experience the wonder that is salvation in this life, they will experience it in full glory throughout all eternity. I also do not think they will have any regret about having missed out on something, since they will only know pure thankfulness for having a spot in heaven reserved for them, and a perfect appreciation of God's providential plan for them to begin existence in the eternal state. Also, even though they never have the opportunity to ear heavenly rewards I doubt that will bother them. Just because the angels 'long to look' into our salvation does not indicate they feel dissatisfaction with their God-ordained position, I assume that these souls share the same unfaltering contentment. (thoughts??) And even though we get the hope and promise of earning rewards in heaven, I have a feeling that when we get there our rewards will take a back burner as we are consumed by the presence of the glory of God. I love this quotation of David Brainard on his deathbed, "I do not go to heaven to be advanced, but to give honour to God. It is no matter where I shall be stationed in heaven, whether I have a high or low seat there, but to live and please and glorify God . . My heaven is to please God and glorify Him, and give all to Him and to be wholly devoted to His glory." But, I admit, I do a lot of assuming and speculating regarding heaven, and I miss our nicotine-induced exchanges about eternity. The points you mentioned are essential in thinking through the subject and I appreciate you addressing them.
absolutely on the contentment point. They will see themselves as clay being graciously redeemed by the potter and will be forever grateful, but it is also a huge tragedy that they are being robed of a more comprehensive view of the glory of God. I see this issue as being very similar to when the Babylonians attacked Israel. God said He would use the Babylonians to judge Israel, and would then judge the Babylonians for attacking Israel. It would seem that God is using the murder of babies to accomplish His purposes (possibly the redeeming of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation), while never denying the wickedness of it all and promising judgement as there portion.
I also agree with the mind set of Sir Brainard on the rewards issue. They must be significant though as Jesus talks about them frequently and puts much in-fas-sis on them. I have no idea how they'll work out though. Seems a little silly to me to be rewarded for something God does in you, but as Eric likes to say "It spotlights the obnoxious graciousness of God".
6 comments:
agreed, we never have had the discussion about these little people's souls. I believe every one was elect, I think God's character in the whole of bible supports this. thoughts?
Yeah, I would lean that way as well. I think that the principle in romans 1 about mankind being without excuse in relation to the revelation of God through "the creation of the world [where] God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood from what's been made." And without having had this understanding, infants cannot make this connection, and don't hold the responsibility of having had rejected it.
I actually have a bizarre optimism about the infanticide humanity has embraced: Perhaps it is God's grace to millions of souls to bypass this crooked and perverse world and be born in Heaven. Its not a bad deal.
agreed, I know Mitch would. :)
I don't, necessarily. Bypassing this world has it's advantages, but also has it's major disadvantages. God has designed life to be experienced so that we would have a better understanding of who He is through His attributes. When a baby gets killed, they don't get the experience of grace in all it's inter-workings. They definitely understand is intellectually, but lack the experience. I think that is why "angels long to look into" the gospel here on earth. It's not something that they will ever get to experience. Also, they don't have the opportunity to earn reward in heaven. I think the only "bright-side" to it is that they don't have to experience the stupidity and heartache of sinning against the God of the universe. All that to say, the killing of babies is a wicked evil that brings reproach on the name of God...which is obviously what you guys believe.
I concur with that as well. I think the comparison to angels best illustrates your point of the unique human experience of forgiveness and grace, which does indeed exalt certain attributes of God in view from this angle. I guess to clarify my 'optimism' about infanticide is that: even though these souls will not experience the wonder that is salvation in this life, they will experience it in full glory throughout all eternity. I also do not think they will have any regret about having missed out on something, since they will only know pure thankfulness for having a spot in heaven reserved for them, and a perfect appreciation of God's providential plan for them to begin existence in the eternal state.
Also, even though they never have the opportunity to ear heavenly rewards I doubt that will bother them. Just because the angels 'long to look' into our salvation does not indicate they feel dissatisfaction with their God-ordained position, I assume that these souls share the same unfaltering contentment. (thoughts??) And even though we get the hope and promise of earning rewards in heaven, I have a feeling that when we get there our rewards will take a back burner as we are consumed by the presence of the glory of God. I love this quotation of David Brainard on his deathbed, "I do not go to heaven to be advanced, but to give honour to God. It is no matter where I shall be stationed in heaven, whether I have a high or low seat there, but to live and please and glorify God . . My heaven is to please God and glorify Him, and give all to Him and to be wholly devoted to His glory."
But, I admit, I do a lot of assuming and speculating regarding heaven, and I miss our nicotine-induced exchanges about eternity. The points you mentioned are essential in thinking through the subject and I appreciate you addressing them.
absolutely on the contentment point. They will see themselves as clay being graciously redeemed by the potter and will be forever grateful, but it is also a huge tragedy that they are being robed of a more comprehensive view of the glory of God. I see this issue as being very similar to when the Babylonians attacked Israel. God said He would use the Babylonians to judge Israel, and would then judge the Babylonians for attacking Israel. It would seem that God is using the murder of babies to accomplish His purposes (possibly the redeeming of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation), while never denying the wickedness of it all and promising judgement as there portion.
I also agree with the mind set of Sir Brainard on the rewards issue. They must be significant though as Jesus talks about them frequently and puts much in-fas-sis on them. I have no idea how they'll work out though. Seems a little silly to me to be rewarded for something God does in you, but as Eric likes to say "It spotlights the obnoxious graciousness of God".
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